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Evan Rosa: From the Yale Center For Faith and Culture, this is for the life of the world. A podcast about seeking and living a life worthy of our humanity.

Alexis Abernethy: Often people have overextended themselves on face of crises, other circumstances over a period of time, and it's just not. Really sustainable. Frankly, for anyone. Emotional exhaustion, it's more than fatigue. Depersonalization. It can't even move toward dehumanization, but it's the idea that you're not feeling like yourself and connected to people in the way that you might normally think about that, and then reduce personal accomplishment.

So no matter what you do, that's, that's really like, you know, you're working harder and harder, but you're not. Feeling like you're getting anything done and it's the sense of personal accomplishment. But imagine that you're tired, exhausted, and not feeling like anything is getting done. Then you know what my clients say?

I'm just stuck. I'm stuck. I used to enjoy my job. Your colleagues, maybe your bosses, if they're perceptive, they can see the effect. Dump it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not performing well and delivering, but it's at such a cost. For me, it's knowing that the Lord has made me as much to work as much to be and to be still.

And know that he is God. When you are still with the Lord, you look different when you're active.

Macie Bridge: I'm Macie Bridge with the Yale Center For Faith and Culture. 

Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You shall not do any work you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock or the alien resident in your towns for in six days, the Lord made heaven and earth the sea and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day.

Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath. And consecrated it.

That's Exodus 28 through 11, wherein Moses delivers the words of God in the 10 Commandments, mosaic law and rabbinic teaching. Thereafter established clear and rigorous ways in which Jews should keep the Sabbath in Hebrew. Shabbat literally means to cease. As in to cease to work, but Christians have inherited some muddier Sabbath waters.

What with Jesus's disrupting of Sabbath law throughout the gospels and the diversity with which different Christian traditions emphasize and practice Sabbath. You're not alone. If you find your. Confused about how to approach Sabbath or not practicing it at all. And it's old news to say that our larger culture doesn't handle the whole ceasing to work thing well either.

And yet in many spaces, our media and conversation spills over with language of self-care and personal boundary keeping of taking care of our mental health and finding time for rest. We're using the term burnout to describe hitting our limits more. Than ever have we just missed the mark on Sabbath keeping?

Why is burnout occurring so often and what does it look like in the church? How do we avoid making the sacred practice of Sabbath? The next box to check on our list of self-care to dos. Today I'm joined by Dr. Alexis Abernethy, who helps me ask all of these questions about burnout Sabbath and how these experiences manifest in the.

Life of the church today. Alexis is a clinical psychologist and professor in the School of Psychology and Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Her research interests are in the intersection between spirituality and health, with attention to Christian spirituality, church leadership, and group therapy models.

In today's at. Episode Alexis brings her expertise in the sciences to the questions of work and rest, which follow so many of us daily and reorients us to the essential spiritual practice of Sabbath keeping. Thanks for listening today,

Alexis. It is wonderful to have you with me on the podcast today. Thank you for being here. 

Alexis Abernethy: Thank you. It's wonderful to be here. Thanks for the invitation. 

Macie Bridge: So you are a psychologist and your research enters this fascinating intersection of. Christian spirituality, worship, and brings your, your background in psychological science to our realm, what's classically on the podcast of theology.

I would love if you could share with our listeners before we delve into our ideas of burnout and Sabbath that we wanna get into today, could you share how do you come to this area of research? What brought you there? What keeps you there, and what's the draw to that intersection for you personally? 

Alexis Abernethy: I love that question and love sharing this story.

I would say like many things, my family of origin played a role growing up in a family where my father was a United Methodist pastor and his father and his grandfather. So there's this whole line, and then my mother is also, and grandmother grew up in the United Methodist Church in South Carolina, so.

They actually met in my mother's home. United Methodist Church was kind of amazing romantic story, but United Methodism kind of just flowed all the way through me and in me in terms of growing up. Although my accepting Christ came later when I was in college at Howard University. So at any rate, my father had a charge, so he had a charge, meaning that there were two churches that he was serving.

So he would actually do two sermons on a Sunday. Both my parents were musicians and I also studied the piano, so I became the young, uh, organist. Even though I couldn't play the organ, I knew how to play the piano, but I had that opportunity to play in one church. Then often I went to the second church, so even without even realizing it, he would, he would preach the same sermon, but the congregation is predominantly black and almost exclusively in the early days black congregation.

A little bit of difference in terms of socioeconomic status, but he would vary his message. So I was studying just because I was hearing two sermons. It's like, okay, I was paying attention to what was similar and what was different. And that was, it was almost kind of like a pastime, you know, to just see, okay, I wonder what he's gonna change, what illustration and that kind of thing.

So I was studying. Worship sermons and the context of even how worship is planned, even as a little child, just because, and I, I think there I was probably 9, 10, 11 and, and in my teenage years, so that was the beginning of it being very comfortable in the church. But then I'll never forget when I was in a probably 10th or 11th grade, I was trying to decide, not only of course I was gonna go to college, but what my career was gonna be.

And in that it was a question. Music could have been the natural thing, the major in music and probably piano performance, but I wanted to do something different for what my parents had done. So I, my mother just was mentioning psychology, and so I said, okay, I'll, I'll think about that. She noticed me observing things that she said, well, that might be a good thing.

Now we can wonder what was I observing in my family dynamic? But anyway. Yeah, so I pursued that and looked at it and it was like, okay, you, you need to get pretty much a PhD in clinical psychology so you can do anything research clinical. Leadership teaching you just had, I wanted to be sure I had many options now coming, uh, out of the black church in that context, you know, the idea of psychology and, and this was, this would've been in, uh, the seventies.

That was really, you know, I was already aware of the tension. Okay. Psychology may be being in faith, being kind of at odds. What was pivotal when I mentioned this to my father? He immediately says, that is wonderful. We need more partnerships with psychologists in the church. His full affirmation of that was incredible.

And I have to say, even at some institutions where I've been, there hasn't been the affirmation of psychology because I began focusing on spirituality health. There hasn't been as much an affirmation of the importance of studying spirituality. From academia, that's not as much of a surprise, but both sides had their issues for him to model.

Not only is this a great choice for you, but I need you as a partner. You know, the church needs you as a partner. That has been my orientation from that day on, and he, he would never know how important that was. But as I journeyed more through and found resistance either from the academy or sometimes at church, I really realized more and more how precious that was and even.

Unusual. And then of course culturally now African American, there's a greater embracing of therapy, realizing it's therapy and the Lord we can all work together. Um, but that's been a journey that we've been on, so I would say those are some critical formative experiences for me. 

Macie Bridge: Absolutely. What a beautiful affirmation from your father.

Thank you for sharing that with us. So I'd love for you to bring us into this idea of burnout. And part of why I wanted to talk about this today, I think that burnout, I don't wanna call it a buzzword in our culture, but there's increasing awareness of burnout as an experience. And I think I hear the term in a lot of different contexts, and I always wonder if we're using the word in the same way to mean the same kinds of things.

You specifically bring it into the realm of spirituality. So I wonder, would you start us with, how are you defining burnout in your work? Yes. And then how does that manifest in our spiritual lives and the life of the church? 

Alexis Abernethy: Yes. Wonderful. Well, first, I, I did go, I went to Howard for undergrad in uc, Berkeley, for graduate school.

So I have to honor the, Christina Maslo was a person who. It was at Berkeley at the time that I was there, and one did the foundational work on burnout and she, so I kind of always draw on these three dimensions because even when I was at Fuller, very, one of the first dissertations that I was a member of the committee on, they were looking at burnout in pastors and did use this definition now that would've been in the late nineties, but newer models can build on it.

But the foundation that I find very important, emotional exhaustion. So that kind of emotional, just not, you know, more than fatigue. It's more than fatigue, um, depersonalization. So the sense of, you know, you just don't feel even like both yourself, but even you're less connected, even, it can't even move toward dehumanization, but it's the idea that you're not.

Feeling like yourself and connected to people in the way that you might normally think about that, and then reduce personal accomplishment. So no matter what you do, that's, that's really like you do, you're working harder and harder, but you're not, you're not feeling like you're getting anything done and it's the sense of personal accomplishment that may not be other people's experience of it, but imagine that you're tired, exhausted, and.

Not feeling like anything is getting any getting done. So people can describe this in other kind of experiential ways, but I like that description of those components. And there's a way in which then, you know what my clients say, I'm just stuck. What is their level of experiences? I'm stuck? I used to enjoy.

My job, and even often it can be see 'cause burnout. People think your, your colleagues, maybe your bosses, if they're perceptive, they can see the effect of it. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not performing well. That's the other part of it. It doesn't mean that you're not performing well and delivering, but it's at such a cost.

Now the other kinds of burnouts, we know that more where people can't do, they're just not functioning and that kind of thing. But I do wanna highlight that often people have overextended themselves, overextended themselves in face of crises, other circumstances over a period of time, and it's just not really sustainable, frankly, for anyone.

Um, but sometimes that burnout is already occurring before other people really are seeing the more major signs of it. Yeah. 

Macie Bridge: Yes. Yes. And it, as you're describing that, I'm hearing the ways that the church either as participants lay leadership and then worship leaders as well. It in many ways, although that's a setting that is, we think of spiritual fulfillment is supposed to be set up against that.

It also is an environment that I think can be conducive to. Spiraling a lot of those factors further. Further for many folks. 

Alexis Abernethy: Exactly, and one of the challenges is unfortunately, many of us have internalized a spirituality. I'm not saying this is what the Lord wants from us at all. In fact, he doesn't. But we say, you know, we need to work.

Uh, you know, there is a scripture, but work heartily as unto the Lord, but as unto the Lord, not to men, but it still heartily is not beating, burn, burning yourself out. So we, we act as if, and we often live as if you know that working and working hard and excessively is even it's dutiful and it is really what the Lord wants.

Uh, you know, colleagues at Fuller wrote this wonderful book, Kurt Frederickson and Cameron Lee, and we actually used this as a guide when we were working with New Orleans pastors like five and six years after Katrina, where that their work will be a joy. That is the, their work will be is the subtitle or the title of the book.

And so the thing is that we kind of got out of balance in how we think. What we imagine that the Lord is wanting us to do and we know faith and works work together, but we kind of mm-hmm. Major in the worst and you know, the 23rd Psalm, it's, you know, I have to admit I'm like many that, okay, I lean on the later voice verses valley of the shadow of death strength in them.

It's a very difficult turn. I go past the first few verses like, okay, those aren't. Yeah. But as I rode and matured and lived in my spiritual life, I realized, wow, leads me now, why does he have to lead us beside the still water you? Why does he have to press that? Why does he makes us to lie down in Green Pack?

Makes us. We're not getting ourselves there. We're not inclined. That's right. We're not inclined. And that part of the spiritual life, we often aren't speaking to that enough 

Macie Bridge: in that sense, do you think, or do you witness a difference in the experience of burnout between burnout that's experienced or cultivated in these religious settings versus in a secular setting?

Alexis Abernethy: I do, because I think if you think about, well, who is more understanding the consequences? You know, it's interesting. My dissertation was on San Francisco Muni bus drivers. What they found is, and this was the occupational safety and health grant, they found that bus drivers were having related to hypertension, but were going on disability much earlier.

So they wanted to understand, okay, what's going on where the job is stressful and that's playing a role. So that was a few decades ago that we were doing that research. People are more understanding how the occupational stress is playing a role and people's ability to be well. And so then some.

Occupations are making some adjustments. Clergy, clergy used to be the most healthy group back in the, you know, later late eighties or nineties. But over time now, their health has been more compromised, unfortunately. And so I do think that's a later finding. That's a shift for even pastors. So think about that.

If pastor's health are being compromised, then to what extent are they even modeling, paying attention to maybe what's happening for their congregation now? That is shifting. That is shifting. But I would say that the attentiveness to the wellbeing and health and wellbeing. Uh, both pastors, but the congregations has become more and more of a focus, but I would say even a later focus compared to some other settings.

Then you add the spiritual component because it can seem like, well, again, the idea of working hardily and, and working to serve to, to the glory of God. There's not an understanding that boundaries are important. Boundaries are important. So more and more though, pastors are saying, I need, okay, Sunday is not, if your church service is classically on Sunday, it's not gonna be a a day, a Sabbath day, really not for pastors in the same way it might be for a non pastoral folks.

So, mm-hmm. Monday pastors choosing that day. Of rest of separation of, unless we know emergencies do come up, but they're making that choice, that model something for the congregation. Mm-hmm. So when I'm was talking to pastors 20, 30 years ago, I had to more make that argument and really encourage them, yes, you can do this.

Now it's more kind of understand, no, I do need to do this. You help the congregation understand that they need to support that in their pastors. Guess what? Then they start to model that, oh, if my pastor does that, maybe I also should be, that's part of the Christian life. That's part of the Christian rhythm.

So I do think there is a cultural shift changing, but I think it's, it was, has been more challenging for some of those reasons. In the church in particular. 

Macie Bridge: So you've brought us to this idea of Sabbath rest, and one of the things that I wanted to ask you about as we come to it from a perspective of burnout in spiritual community, I, I think that culturally we have kind of the instinct, the impulse these days to reach for psychology for some quick fixes to those things that are.

Weighing on us, our mental health and, and even perhaps those things that are larger in our spiritual lives. Psychology is, it feels like it's become a quick reach and. Sabbath to me. My understanding of Sabbath, I think expands beyond our usual self-help section definitions of, of how we might take care of ourselves.

And so perhaps if you could also define how you're, how you're thinking of Sabbath in your work. Let's start there. How would you define Sabbath? Yes, yes. In. In in your work as a psychologist? Yes. 

Alexis Abernethy: Well, one of the differences, of course, from any standard self-care understanding is it is about time with the Lord.

It is about time apart. You could say particularly focused. So for different people engage in it differently, but you are not only you, it's taking time apart. That's a common that would crowd across secular understandings of just generally Sabbath and even sabbaticals. Let's be clear, sabbaticals and academic setting and other settings that is for time apart, but for the meaning of Sabbath from a Christian standpoint, then also means seeking God in that time apart.

And that can be in increased prayer, reading, people, prayer and fasting. It can be, there can be certain disciplines that are part of it. But what I would say above all, I like how Howard Thurman talks about the solitude, the quietness. For me, Sabbath is about being quiet, and it is very hard for us to be quiet.

And what do I mean by that? No noise. So even for me, as much as I love music, I'm very well aware and part of my Sabbath rest would include listening to Christian music, but. Absolute quiet. It can be not possible for some people. Actually, you know that for no noise because there's noise around, uh, wherever you might live, depending on where you live.

But a reasonable, this is where headphones can be all righteous with those headphones are, and just have quiet, because in that stillness, in that stillness. We can hear from the Lord and we're not even necessarily praying or let's say petitioning we are hearing from him. And for me, I call that lot's like ultimate Sabbath.

That's, that's doesn't mean that all Sabbath will include that, but it is a slowing down. It is a slowing down. It is relatively speaking. So if at least you're more quiet, more slowed down. Because sometimes then we can make it feel like, oh, this is such an ultimate thing. I can't do that. Then you're trying to do Sabbath right then.

That, that, that, that defeats the purpose. Right. But knowing that the Lord, for me, it's knowing that the Lord has made me as much to work.

As much to be and to be still and know that she is God. Now, that if I just focus on that Psalm 46, that one passage, and just be with him in that. Mm-hmm. So. I would say the, the thing that convicted me as in a secularist setting, and a lot of my colleagues worked on Sundays, so I go to church, but. I found myself gradually working on Sundays 'cause they'd be with their families.

I'd be in my community active on Saturdays, so it almost became a competitive thing. So once I came to a seminary setting, I knew I needed to change that, but I had gotten caught up and that rhythm. Colin Brown, my systematic theology professor. As busy as he was as a professor, prolific in his writing scholarship and active in his church.

But he talked about Sabbath rests, and to this day we actually kept notes on his lecture. So I have the actual thing that I wrote, but it is more who he was as he said it.

In psychology, we care about outcomes. We care about process, but we also care about outcomes. I saw in him someone who was resting in the Lord. Mm-hmm. And I saw that and I said, I want to be able to reflect that. And so there's a way in which there's I, one way I would call it is, it's a presence when you are still with the Lord and able to be still.

The Lord, it changes when you're even active. You look different when you're active. Because it's as if you're cultivating a certain stillness. And what this reminds me of is when we were studying worship leaders, you know, we wanted to know what contribute. They were nominated and exemplars for fostering transformation in partnership with the Lord and worship, and we expected to hear certain things.

I wanted to hear more about the role of music, specifically. These are music worship leaders. But what really was amazing to me is they talked about the preparation. And they use the term 24 7. Not that they were busy 24 7, but it's that all of life is preparation for what happens in the congregational worship experience.

Hmm. And so this is part of it. Yes. The music performance, you need to technically be prepared, but the spiritual preparation involves. Experiences like Sabbath, having the Sabbath rest and honoring the Sabbath and knowing that your effort only goes so far. That's the hardest thing in this these days where you know you can get so much done to Technology helps us so much and yet it's a challenge.

Macie Bridge: Yes. Yes. '

Alexis Abernethy: cause we really feel like never knowing, never knowing enough, never reading enough, never. Whatever you wanna say. Never doing enough. 

Macie Bridge: Yes. Yes, you, as you're speaking, you're reminding me of my favorite Emily Dickinson poem. Uhhuh Some Keep the Sabbath. Are you familiar with that? No. 

Alexis Abernethy: No, I'm not actually.

Macie Bridge: I mean, Emily Dickinson's, uh, theology and her relationship to the church. Could be its own podcast episode, but yes, yes. Um, her poem, some Keep the Sabbath, it starts some Keep the Sabbath going to church. I keep it staying at home with a Babo link for the, for a coer and an orchard for a dome. And she. It's my favorite poem because she places all of these, the ritual worship.

Mm-hmm. Classic parts of Sabbath in the church as we know it, onto these images of her daily life and in Massachusetts, in her little Haven, in the woods. And she ends the poem with. God preaches a noted clergyman and the sermon is never long. That's an important note. So instead of getting to heaven at last, I am going all along and I think part of why I love this poem is because she, she sort of just flippantly and poetically and beautifully points to this impulse to relegate Sabbath.

Into the church and into this structure, and, and I've always loved the way that she put into words what you are articulating here about this Sabbath is a way of life. And I think I, I'm also hearing from you, our culture is set up against that in many ways. Yeah. Is Sabbath a fix to burnout? Would be my question for you.

Alexis Abernethy: Okay. So I'm gonna naturally respond to the word fixed. Yes, please do. Because that's a very common word for us now, trying to fix stuff, fixers all that. So I think, and this is, this is just interesting. Some of the challenge that I actually were experience in studying spirituality and health is that some of my theology colleagues worry that, am I trying to say that spirituality, look at the functional dimensions of it.

So like it's a pill. And there have been articles two decades ago about this kind of thing, and I'm sure, and people still have concerns, so. Because one way to think about it is, okay, well if you do Sabbath, is it a fix to burnout? Then? Does it matter what you believe? Because if it isn't like a pill that you just do certain things and we were just talking about, well, some of it is doing, but it's about being, and so there's a way.

There's a way that I would have concern to think about moving toward, as I'm saying, being more still. Being more quiet and see that can be in a, in a, a beautiful, uh, space outdoors, not in, I'm not even talking in general about a church context. It can happen there when we are just still and quiet in worship.

But this can happen anywhere. So. It would almost suggest that if you do the thing, then you are the thing. And Sabbath for me does involve connection to God. Yes. Now, that doesn't mean that other people can't find who don't believe in God, cannot also rest and be quieted and that will be beneficial. So that's what I would say.

They're common elements that have. Practices, let's say behaviors that will be beneficial just from a health standpoint. And my area of specialization used to be occupational stress. So this is what I'd say, and even to my clients being a person of faith. Your faith can help you understand that the Lord might not want you to be continuing in a situation that is so highly stressful, highly traumatic.

You know, again, there are seasons for all of us, so we always have to discern that. However, there's also something that needs to be done in a reality way, right? To make some of those changes. So it's a combination. So when, so the challenge of saying is Sabbath a fix for burnout, sometimes a burnout is not just an individual thing, it is actually what's being expected of a person.

Hmm. Wisdom would say, no, you don not only need relief from that and have a time apart from that, you may need to make a change. So what I would say is for someone who is burnt out, and especially we think about this emotional exhaustion, there is a need for some time of recovery and healing and repair.

And being able to rest and get real rest. 'cause that's the other thing. When you are at that point, your rest isn't even, isn't refreshing. So you may be sleeping or not able to sleep. So see, some things need to happen to help foster that, but also engaging in Sabbath rest. Would be likely a helpful practice.

Mm-hmm. But everyone is, you know, it depends on their journey. It depends on their, their place. And the way I would more think about it, 'cause I'm a preventive researcher as well, that ongoing practice of Sabbath helps you less likely find yourself in a place of burnout because you're attending. You're hearing, you're seeing, so you see the earlier signs even before you get to the point of burnout.

Mm-hmm. That would be a way that I would think about it as well. But yeah, a fix that would feel like. To fix this. 

Macie Bridge: Yes. Yes. No, thank you for going there. I, I'm wondering what are the observed differences in church communities that you witnessed with, you were talking about these communities where leaders are very intentionally trying to mirror Sabbath to their congregations.

Yes. Yes. What, what are those differences you see compared to congregations that maybe don't have that example of leadership? 

Alexis Abernethy: You hear the pastor talking about, I am going to be with my family. I attend Faithful Send Bible Church. It was Father's Day. Now, you know, mother's Day, father's Day, the pastor needs to be there.

But our pastor had the opportunity to celebrate Father's Day. It may have also been around his father's birthday, I'm not sure, but three generations. Mm-hmm. Three generations. With his father, and that meant that he wasn't there on Sunday. Now he, he did deliberate, even a dramatic, uh, sermon. So, you know, used technology we heard from him on that day.

Mm-hmm. But he made that commitment and he's newly, this is probably his second or third year, or from a pastor at a long pastorate. So, you know, some people, especially early, would feel like, oh, I might need to just be there. That modeled something so important. 

Macie Bridge: Hmm. 

Alexis Abernethy: That his time with his, not only his family, nuclear family, if you will, but his father being present with him was very important.

Now, it's also important that he talks about his family and his connection and his time with them, because part of what people need to see is it's not just that you don't always see the pastor all the time. He is very active and leading, but you also know that there are other commitments that he has beyond just the congregation.

And then a very important part. Yeah, everybody knows sermon preparation takes a lot of time and pastors often will address that. But you wanna also hear this other category. Pastors are Christians too, right? And we have our time and our quiet time, and even for pastors. But what does that look like?

Because if you're studying and reading the Bible so much, it all, it kind of gets merged and the Lord is shaping you as you're preparing. But as the music worship leaders said to me, you know, but then there's another part that is really where it's just you and God in the way that it would've been before you were even in the role.

It's not about how much time you devote in that, but it does matter that you do that. Then also when you hear them talking about even times when they're fatigued, not acting like they're super men and super women. Yeah, I needed to take some rest. My, my brothers, my sisters, my wife told me I need to take some rest.

My husband told me that kind of confession is really powerful. Mm-hmm. What do you see, what would've been kind of more encouraged? Oh, no, I'm just, I'm here. I'm there. I'm everywhere. You can tell there may even be sick. And they're still pressing, pressing, so if they do, they may preach a sermon. And go ahead and preach when you know they are sick, but then they're taking a few days off more than their normal one day.

Right. They're taking time to recover and they talk about that, that really matters. Mm-hmm. Because if you just see them pushing, pushing, pushing, then I'm describing more what the pastor's doing. But then they push, push, push their leaders. So then the leaders, ministry leaders push, push, push the members and it becomes this incessant kind of thing and people really get tired.

So I think that the whole COVID experience is interesting. I think you know, lots of dimensions to it. And we used to talk, we talk about bedside side Baptist, our church has Baptist roots, but. I certainly got, it became convenient. My church is a good ways away from where I live, 25 miles, but I commute to church and I just immediate and, and work is very close.

That's how I balance it out, right? So that distance played a role being on the freeway, all of those kinds of things. But I think what was also happening, so laziness plays a role in people's decisions. But people also were counting the costs. They were actually beginning to realize that wear and tear, and I'm not talking about necessarily people that only went to church once a week.

People that might sing the choir have other roles. It had you start calculating that differently, and I believe that once. 'cause some ministries I think was just hard. You know, you more derogatory to saying that people are lazy or whatever. But I really think there's now been more of an adjustment. No church is not gonna be the same and we need to understand some things, what that's about.

So here's a concrete example. I'm a member of choir in our church. We're been in two different choirs, but there the rehearsal is one night and then we have the tech rehearsal the day before. On Saturday. Okay, so think about that. That means there are three days that you're gonna be at church, a poor Sunday, the day before, and then the day of the week.

That's quite a commitment. So they just did a poll and and decided, you know what? Let's do a poll and see what people think. And we're enduring the attack during that weekday, later after rehearsal. You need to check the micing and all that. You need to do that. You need to have the musicians there, but that has relieved people of a full day that they're coming back to church.

I have to tell you, I don't know that pre COVID that would've even been entertained. So there, there's a, uh, something that's happened to us in terms of the pandemic that actually has helped to, I think, recalculate the cost and just not certain things. Community 

Macie Bridge: awareness almost. 

Alexis Abernethy: Yeah, greater community awareness.

Right. So I do think even the churches that weren't paying attention to that, you know, or pushing, pressing all of this has caused them to really think more about, okay. What might be a better balance, better rhythm for us, and that we may need to change some of what we've been doing. Mm-hmm. 

Macie Bridge: Mm. Mm-hmm. I'm hearing how much Sabbath is actually, maybe as much as it's something we need to pay attention to on an individual level.

It's a community posture, 

Alexis Abernethy: probably is. 

Macie Bridge: And would you say that Sabbath then, as a community commitment, does something for church's resiliency? 

Alexis Abernethy: There is no question about that. No question about that. I would say, where do I have the best glimpse of that? The work we did with New Orleans pastors was for three years, and it was like a three year program and.

We, we were, we were coming in to their situation about five years after Katrina. So that's interesting. 'cause they basically were pouring out and they, some of them were displaced too in their churches. But managing all of that, the crisis of that. And then naturally they felt the wear and tear for their.

Family. So our uh, I think it was our last session was actually on resilience, but we started with Sabbath. The earlier offerings had to do with Sabbath and what we saw, it wasn't always the same couples 'cause it was couples coming to this for the most part. But we saw over time them kind of literally catching their breath.

And it was iterative process where we knew we had our ideas about what we thought would be important, thriving, of course, Sabbath rest, but we also heard from them and what they said to us by the third year is what they wanted is packaging for them what we had learned so that they could actually train their congregation to grow in resilience in some of the ways that they had.

So there's one way of measuring resilience to see whether there change on certain indicators, and that's an important way of understanding whether folks are really more resilient. But to me, realizing that the pastors don't need to provide everything that is critical to pastors thriving. Moving beyond surviving to thriving and taking some of those principles for their congregation.

So we actually provided that in a way that, a format that they could share it and leaders could build on those principles. So for me, that resilience that the Sabbath rest allows you to literally catch your own breath, but also then be able to see, okay, discerning what is needed. The congregation, and maybe I don't have to be the main one, just driving this, do this in community with my members and helping them resource.

To me, that's so important for leaders to realize there's certain things that leaders pretty much only need to do. Yeah. But there's so many more other things. The congregation, and I think this is, you know, part of my United Methodist roots, although I tend a non-denominational church. The role of the lady has that definitely comes through and really empowering, empowering the lady.

Macie Bridge: Well, I'm grateful to bring that into this conversation 'cause I, I'm sure there are many members of our listeners who are coming to this podcast from a place of church leadership, but I think the majority are probably those who find themselves in the congregation on Sundays. And I think I realizing the role that I individuals within the church community can bring to setting this culture of Sabbath is.

Probably essential in our current time, especially it feels like in our country right now, we need some resilience among our worshiping communities. 

Alexis Abernethy: Absolutely. Absolutely, yes. 

Macie Bridge: Would you offer our listeners who are coming to this conversation, maybe unsure of where. Where to start with their Sabbath practice or perhaps experiencing burnout themselves.

Where do you suggest they start? Where, where do they look? Where do they go? Yeah. 

Alexis Abernethy: Yeah. Well, when I think about scripture, I there, there, I mentioned already Psalm 46 to just read that passage, that one verse, really be still and know that I'm God and but also John 15. I think that's the abiding in me passage, right?

Abide in me. So not necessarily the whole chapter about about the first 10 or 15 verses there For sure. Powerful because that abiding and it doesn't matter what, yes, you can do a word study, really get into it, but I'm actually encouraging what helps me just reading that and saying, Lord, I wanna guide more.

You, I wanna abide more in you. And you know, we have our Lectio Divina where we'll say the passage several times, read it and then see what comes to mind. I think that's also a helpful practice. Then I have, you know, like, what's on your playlist? That's a question. I have different categories. So I have most of my sacred songs, all, um, very, uh, peaceful ones.

I have been asleep that those are absolutely peaceful. 'cause the sacred songs, I end up doing a combination, but I have my songs that are just very restful, very restful and soothing. And actually those times when I might have difficulty sleeping, I will, I will play that. And so to have music then. That is calming.

Now, it doesn't mean that also like my favorite songs, it includes some songs that are more energizing. So I'm not suggesting that Sabbath is all about being still. 'cause that's actually not true. I find though, for myself, that's the hardest thing. That's the counter-cultural thing. That's where I, I I, I need to experience more for my own rhythm.

Of work, play, and rest. So I, I am highlighting that, but your playlist, having your playlist work for you mm-hmm. In terms of, of Sabbath. 

Macie Bridge: Wonderful. Well thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today for lifting up. The ways that we, we need a little bit of Sabbath in our, in our current world and in our current culture and all of the, the ways that we might not have been thinking of that, and the ways that it can manifest in our community.

So thank you for bringing your wisdom and your presence to the podcast today. 

Alexis Abernethy: Thank you very much. As. Been a pleasure

Evan Rosa: FOr the Life of the World is a production of the Yale Center For Faith and Culture at Yale Divinity School. This episode featured Alexis Abernethy. Special thanks to Pam King for making this connection. Interview by Macie Bridge, production Assistance by Alexa Rollow and Emily Brookfield. I'm Evan Rosa and I edit and produce the show.

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